Judy Gold – You Can’t Argue With An Older Woman | S8 E03

As soon as we learned we landed an interview with Judy Gold, stellar comedian, actor and writer, Two Old Bitches started grinning and giggling. What a coup! Once we actually began talking with her, we laughed out loud, and often, at her insightful zingers. Judy, whose comedic heroes are Joan Rivers and Phyllis Diller, makes you laugh, and think. Approaching 60, her many credits include: countless stand-up comedy performances; two Emmys for her work as a writer and producer on The Rosie O’Donnell Show; two off-Broadway shows, “The Judy Show: My Life as a Sitcom” and “25 Questions for a Jewish Mother;” two books, “Yes I Can Say That: When They Come for the Comedians We’re All in Trouble” and “25 Questions for a Jewish Mother;” a weekly podcast, “Kill Me Now;” and roles on television series from the more recent Better Things to Madame Secretary, 30 Rock, Law & Order, Ugly Betty” and “Sex and the City.” Why doesn’t Judy Gold have her own series? It’s past time, Hollywood! In the meantime, for a much needed dose of her edgy humor, listen to this funny episode.  (Special thanks to literary agent and Screen Bitch Malaga Baldi for putting us in touch with Judy.)

+ TRANSCRIPT

Idelisse and Joanne: Welcome to two Old Bitches. I'm Idelisse Malavé, and I'm Joanne Sandler.. And we're two old bitches. We're interviewing our women friends and women who could be our friends. Listen as they share stories about how they reinvent themselves.

Judy: You look good Two Old Bitches.

Idelisse and Joanne: Thank you. We're very old. Judy.

Judy: Wait, are you wearing the same exact thing?

Idelisse: No, that's, no. Mine is a short shirt, but we wear a lot of navy blue and black and

Judy: I like navy blue.

Idelisse: Yeah, I love navy blue, particularly this very dark navy.

Judy: Yeah, it's good.

Idelisse: It's really good, Are you wearing black?

Judy: No, I'm wearing a fucking Comedy Cellar T-shirt. It's blue. Oh, okay. It's blue. I have no bra, by the way, just fyi. Just for the listeners.

Joanne: IdeIisse, one of Two old Bitches. Now that we know that Judy Gold just did the big reveal, she's not wearing a bra. I wanna say I'm not either.

Idelisse: And I wanna say that I was

Joanne: Oh, there you are.

Idelisse: Yeah. Yeah, I was, And I probably have the smallest breaths of the three of us. But let's, let's talk about Judy and not tits, not tits. Joanne.

Joanne: No, no, no. Definitely. Today, dear listeners. This is a treat. So sublime and beyond the beyond that we had a conversation with the comedian, actor, podcaster, author, political actor, producer, Judy Gold.

Idelisse: Yes, I'm sure most of you have heard of her and certainly have heard her. She has been around for a while. She is such a funny, funny woman,

Joanne: And she uses her humor for really important political messages and activism. One of the reasons we wanted to interview her, one of the thousands of reasons we wanted to, is partly because she wrote an amazing book called, "Yes, I Can Say That: When They Come for the Comedians, We Are All in Trouble" right?

Idelisse: And was quoted actually in the New York Times as a result after the slap. You know what I mean? Right. Will Smith. I think what you said is so important, Joanne. This is a woman whose values, who she is infuses and drives her humor. Mm. Right. It's sort of like, it's not my, my politics and my values are over there and funny is over here.

it's all of a piece.

Joanne: That's right. it's all of a piece and her career is really quite extraordinary. She's frequent guest on The View she was in First Lady, Better Things.

Idelisse: She won two Emmys for writing and producing The Rosie O'Donnell Show. She has yet to be a regular enough from your perspective.

Joanne: Perspective. She wants her own show. By the way, if any produces are listening and deserves it

Idelisse: And she deserves it, it would be such a good show.

Joanne: It really would. We should say, give credit where credit is due that Oh yes. Malaga Baldi, who was a guest on Two Old Bitches in our early seasons, yes. Helped us get to Judy and we thank Malaga for that.

Idelisse: Yes, thank you, Malaga. And thank you Judy. And you will not be surprised, listeners, that we start with the question that just wakes us up every morning: who are you?

Joanne: So we have a beginning question that we usually.

Idelisse: So I'm gonna do it and it's one of those simple but difficult and annoying questions, so, I apologize in advance. So, Judy Gold, who are you?

Judy: Who am I? Well, I'm someone whose partner just didn't turn off her cell phone.

I am. Who am I? I am a tall jewish mother, partner, comedian, uh, writer, author. Uh, neurotic. ADD-ish. Well, I definitely have ADD I'm not ish. ADD, uh, child. I'm a child. yeah. I'm a child. Oh God, Seriously? Oh my God.

I feel that I am childlike if I - you know, it's funny because I'm definitely, I'm like, I'm, I'm immature in a way where I want to still have fun. I don't have an edit button really, but I like silly. I like, I like being inappropriate like, I don't understand why people think that they can't, when they get older, they can't still be silly children like I love, I love that. So I, I, if I, if I think about like specific examples, like when I used to go to like parent teacher conferences or like school things and I used to, I used to be sitting there thinking, Look at these parents who were just so serious and you know, ugh, you could just tell they had no fun whatsoever. Not spontaneous. I don't take myself seriously at all, and I can't stand people who do take themselves seriously. So I think that's where I'm childlike, but I'm also very mature and adult-like, because I think that. I am very self-aware and, uh, I'm not afraid, uh, especially in, you know, sticky situations where people feel uncomfortable.

Like if someone is sick or, or has, you know, says, Oh, I have a terminal illness or whatever, I will acknowledge that and joke. You have to fucking laugh. Oh, am I allowed to curse?

Idelisse and Joanne: You're Oh, curse. You have to fucking laugh.

Judy: You have to laugh at everything. You know, my friend, I don't need, this is too depressing of a story, but whatever, But I'm just saying, I'm just, I think laughter is so important. Always, no matter what the situation is. And I think that is where like, you know, inappropriate, like that appropriate thing. There are, yes, I know how to behave in situations. And it's funny cause people are, I just did a, I was just on a call for a show that I'm doing. And they're like, well, we don't know how to say this to you, but we are, you know, public television.

And I said, I won't curse. You know, like, like they're so afraid of. And I, I, I've done these things a thousand times without cursing, but there's a, there's a bit of playfulness and, uh, and I really, I, I do funny and Laughter. Laughter is so important to me. Like if you're with someone and you don't make each other laugh, like there's nothing, like I used to have this rule with my kids.

You could, if you say anything mean to me, like, and inappropriate and horrible and disrespectful, you won't get in trouble if it's funny. Right. And that was my parenting style.

Joanne: And how did they, how did they do? Did they

Judy: They did great. They had some really good ones that were so mean and I was like, that is really funny. Okay, you're not getting in trouble.

Joanne: Well, you wrote, that's why, I mean, you wrote the book. You've been really looking at that question Right.

Judy: Right. What you can and cannot say. And, and. I mean, I believe you can talk about any topic, uh, and joke about any topic, but the joke better be funny. That's the whole, it's, it's the crafting of the joke, like some people get on stage and are like lazy and just are spewing, you know, epithets and, and, and just stuff that's not crafted into a joke. That's where you, you get in trouble. Um, but then the other part of it is when you, the listener, don't, don't take into consideration the intent of the comedian.

Like, you know, you're like, Oh, I heard that word, so I can't listen to the rest of this. Or, um, I'm taking it this way, even though they meant it that way. That's on you. So it's, it's hard, you know, you can - you can be offended at anything if you, if you want, you know, you can find something offensive in everything.

Joanne: So, Judy, that has changed, right? And cuz you have a long career now as a comedian. As a writer. Right. And you've seen the arc of change around what you can and cannot say, or what people feel they can and cannot say. Has it affected your act? Like, how does that, how does that affect your comedy and your courage and your, or not at all?

Judy: Uh, well, I've been doing it so long, I don't really care, you know, like I, you get to a certain point where you're like, I've been doing this so long, you're not gonna tell me what I can and cannot say. But that being said, the world is a different place than it was 35 years ago and certain words have different meanings.

Certain words weren't even around. Things have happened that change people's opinions. The world's gotten smaller. So in that regard, you know, great comedy causes - can, can facilitate discourse, which is exactly what you want. Uh, and you know, we have evolved. So going back and saying, Oh, this person said this 25 years ago.

I, I think there's no good in that. It's like,

Idelisse: Context is everything

Judy: Context nuance, you know, I always say this in, in interviews that if you murdered someone and went on trial for homicide, your sentence is determined by your intent, and you don't give the same consideration to a comedian. So, and literally I can,

Idelisse: That's a good way to put it.

Judy: Right?

Joanne: So like, it's like, like when you say you're killing me with laughter.

Judy: Well, it's, it's true. Like if, if the way we talk to one another, it's like, how'd you do? I killed, I bombed. You know, though, it's either one or the. Which is also why I think Zelenskyy is such an amazing leader. I, you know, you have to be fearless to get on stage and not be intimidated and you know, I think the fact that he, you know, he's very well educated and was a comedian. I mean, comedy makes you, it's a surprise. A joke is a buildup of tension and then a release, you know, you see something, right? You see something from a different perspective. So yeah, that's why that's, I, I really don't think it's a such a coincidence

Idelisse: The book is, "Yes, I Can Say That: When They Come for the Comedians, We Are All in Trouble". I love that title. Yeah. And I'm gonna guess that I think I, you were quoted in a recent New York Times article

Judy: Oh, right, Yes.

Idelisse: The infamous slap.

Judy: Yes. I couldn't believe, I mean, I was, we were watching that.

When we were watching the, the Oscars, and I know Chris since the, you know, he started, we started together and I remember we were sitting on the couch and that happened and the other people were with were like, Oh, was that, And I knew immediately it wasn't staged. I could see by Chris's response and then Chris, the first thing he said was over a G.I. Jane joke. So there you have his intent right there, he was making a stupid G.I. Jane joke, a film at a, at an award ceremony for films. Maybe it was at Jada Pinkett Smith's expense, but who puts themselves out? You're sitting in the front row. He walks out it's like stop taking yourself so fucking seriously.

And then why does she need a man to go? Ooh. And then the people were like, Oh, I like Will Smith for sticking up for his wife. Why does she need him to stick up for her?

Joanne: Well, and like you said, it generated a lot of debate. I mean, it was so interesting how much debate,

Judy: Right. It's wrong. He assaulted him over a stupid fucking joke, and then they gave him a standing ovation.

Idelisse: You know, one of the things I wondered about Judy is, you know, what I, the, the long list of things that you do, right? Comedy often a part of it, but you're a TV writer, an actor, an author, a podcaster, a producer. You do all of these, you pull all of these different ropes. And I have a two part question for you.

What did you set out to do, You know, did you set out to do all of these things? Some of these things?

Judy: Well, I, I set out to do stand up. I just wanted to be, you know, like Joan Rivers really was my hero. And I also thought, you know, I, I really, my big dream was to be. You know, on a sitcom, on a socially relevant sitcom, you know, like Maude, you know, I wanted to be, Bea Arthur and Joan Rivers.

And. Uh, yeah, it has not happened , but I, I, you know, in this business- I know, but I haven't been a regular on, um, you know, I haven't, I've been a regular on one in 1994, "All American Girl" with Margaret Cho, and then I got another series that was canceled after we shot three episodes, but

But I haven't, you know, like a lot of my cohorts, like, you know, Ray Romano or Kathy Griffin, or, I mean, these people who I started with who even, you know, Jon Stewart, like all these guys who got this opportunity and I didn't even, you know, I don't want my own show. I just wanna be Rhoda Morgenstern

You know? And I always thought, you know, representation is everything. You know, growing up, and I, I had written a show about this too, my addiction to sitcoms because, you know, I wanted to run away to all these other people's homes.

Idelisse: So when you were a kid, what, what sitcoms were you addicted to?

Judy: Well, in the beginning it was the, I was addicted to The Brady Bunch and The Partridge Family.

But you know, Mary Tyler Moore. All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Good Times. Um, One Day at a Time, Laverne & Shirley and, and Maude of course, uh, a lot of these shows were, you know, we were, so everyone was watching at the same time. So we, we were invested in these characters as if they were members of our family.

So whatever issues they were resolving or dealing with, I think, you know, we, it made us have conversations in the family about, well, what will we do if we were in that situation? I mean, All in The Family would never get on a network now, I mean, you know, and when they, and when they did the live versions of All in the Family and The Jeffersons a couple years ago during the pandemic, they were edited, they were censored, some of the words that we can't, that they didn't wanna use

Idelisse: What you're saying is so important because they were public shared events, right? You would watch it, you would watch Mary Tyler Moore on Saturday and you would go to school or work on Monday and you'd be talking. It was something you shared.

Judy: Right. And, and you know, because these characters were people that you, who you cared about. You know, you, you really felt affected by, you know, these stories like Maude had an abortion like that would never happen. She doesn't even say the word abortion. It's a two parter and the way you know, I went, when I was doing research for my book, I went to the museum, a broadcasting, and I watched the episode and, the two episodes, and it was really interesting because, you know, the ending of that episode, the two episodes, it goes on back, it's goes back and forth that she, she gets pregnant, she's like 47, she's already a grandmother and Walter, her husband, uh, thinks she wants to have the baby and she thinks he wants to have the baby. And it goes back and forth. So they're each having the baby cause they think that the other person wants it. And then at the end they realize neither of them want to have this baby they're at, you know, at, you know, we think that's young now, but it, you know, in the seventies.

And, and, and they hug at the end when they realize I, Oh, I thought you, No, I thought. And they hug and, and Maude says, Do you think we're doing the right thing? And Walter says, We're doing the right thing in our private life, you know for our family, I'm paraphrasing, for our family. And that was the end.

That was the end. And it was, you know, this is our choice, this is our decision, this is our life and it's private and other people might think a different way, but it made people think, I mean, thank God for Norman Lear.

And even if you think about like shows like, you know, Sherwood Schwartz, Gilligan's Island, and um, The Brady Bunch, You might think The Brady Bunch is fluff, but this was the first time. That, uh, it was a, it was a blended family on television, Gilligan's Island, people from different socioeconomic backgrounds having to, to live together.

I mean, you might have think they were stupid. Um, I mean, look at Hogan's Heroes. Uh,

Idelisse: Right. But I think the connection you're making between laughter, comedy and meaning, Right.

Judy: Right and substance.

Idelisse: That weaving all of that together, Right. Is so, And yeah. So with the, the, the second part of the question was, so that was the beginning, right? You wanted, you were

Judy: and I always wanted, That's, I thought I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be on one of these shows, I'm gonna, Yeah.

Idelisse: And is that what you want now.

Judy: Yes. Oh, that's the one thing I have not accomplished. I mean, I get cast in things, uh, but it'll be for, you know, one episode, three episodes.

But to be able to create a character that people relate to, care about, are socially relevant, I mean, I said it before, representation is everything. Will and Grace changed people's minds about gay men. You know, cause they were invested in these characters and they happen to be gay and they were not threatening.

And it was like, Oh, okay. I know someone like that. Yeah. So, yeah. Oh, that's all I want. That's all.

Joanne: And Judy, what, what, what do you think of Hacks? Have you watched Hacks?

Judy: I have watched a few episodes. I have to watch the rest. It's great. I mean, I love that Jean Smart's great. Hannah Einbinder amazing, like I love women driven shows, female driven shows, and I feel like there's not enough of them and you know, it's just beautiful that at her age she is able to carry the show, um, and telling a story about a woman at, at her age, you know, we don't get, it's, you know, you think about all these, like The Kominsky Method and um, well, uh, Grace and Frankie's also great, but it's, women's stories are so important to tell cause it's not easy. Right.

And I always say, You know, when I think about marriage equality, Edie Windsor was our, you know, Pin-up girl. I mean, she went before the Supreme Court and sued the United States because she was with her partner, her wife, for 37 years. And she gets a federal inheritance tax bill for almost $300,000, I think, or 360,000, like a lot of money.

Um, And it's like, why do I have to pay for this? You know, I've been with my partner for 37 years. This is pre-marriage equality in, you know, the Supreme Court, which is now gonna overturn it, but Right. It was an issue that we all deal with taxes. Why? If they're together for 37 years, they have paid their taxes and she is inheriting her 37 year relationship.

Her wife, who they went to fucking Canada to get married at the airport because she was a paraplegic. Like this is the, you know, here's the deal. If we had older women telling these stories, like I think for abortion, you know, we can have Amy Coney Barrett, ugh. You know, deciding, well, you know, you can have the kid and you know, give it up and whatever,

But if you had an older woman, who was saying my friend died on a kitchen table, you know, that's what we need. You can't argue with an older woman and you know, life is not- the misogyny. I, uh, you know, I deal with a lot of antisemitism and a lot of homophobia, but more antisemitism than homophobia. But I really, the most, we have not dealt properly with misogyny in this country. It is ridiculous that they would elect a dumb shit game show host, fucking idiot, selfish, narcissistic, like, and here's a woman like her or not, like her or not, she's applying for a job and she's overqualified and you're just like, I don't like her and it's the young women who were like, Oh, there's gonna be a woman president in my time, so why does it have to be her?

It's like you've been on this earth for 18 years, 20 years. You don't know what it's like to navigate life as a woman. And if you were 20 years older, you'd be like, Oh yeah, we should have, but this is what happens. This is what happens.

Joanne: I have to ask you. So what is the Judy Gold Half Hour comedy show gonna be?

Judy: I mean, I have many ideas, but I had, you know, I really want, I've written something with Sandra Bernhard, which is great. And then, uh, you know, I've had other people write stuff, but I think if I really thought about what I would, I think I would see the show through my two straight sons eyes and be their mother, because, you know, these guys are so straight and they were raised by lesbians.

And, you know, they deal with, I'm sure they hear shit all the time about gays and women and, and you know, one's a, a basketball player, he plays college basketball. . Um, and the other one, they're just, you know, he, he produces comedy shows and you know, they're just so straight and they were raised by women and they have female friends.

Like, that's the thing, like I never these guys who are looking, Oh, me too. Yeah. Fucked up. You can't say. It's like, I don't understand, every woman is objectified by like every, you can't, you cannot have a relationship or a friendship, a relationship with a woman without thinking about sex? Like that's what I don't get.

And I, and so both of my kids have like best friends who are women, they know how to keep that boundary. They know how to look at someone who's female and see the friends. Right? And I feel like, here's, I mean, I know you probably think this too, but if you've never had to pick it or march or have someone stand in front of the Supreme Court to fight for your rights, you're fucking entitled.

You're entitled. And you know, you see how men, white men especially, white men, period, are behaving because. It's like, oh, so hard to be a white guy now. Really? Really? Is it? Oh really? Oh, that must be so hard on you. You know? Right.

Idelisse: All that extra money you earn. All that power you have.

Joanne: Like, like you said, the orange ruler of the free world taught them beautifully.

Judy: Well, he's a carnival barker, and they're, they feel disenfranchised, and that's where they're going.

Idelisse: But judy, what about the fact, because I think what I'm trying to put two things you said together. One is the power of old women speaking to issue with the experience, wisdom, whatever you wanna call it, that they bring, right? The realities of misogyny and the realities when misogyny and ageism intersect.

Judy: Oh, please. That's the problem. It's like I want women to older women. To tell their stories or be able, but we are not given the opportunity because the people in power are young, they're men. They're like, You're not sexy. You're not this, you know, unless you're good to look at or there's some other thing going on with you, we don't wanna hear from you. And you know, we are, I think the first generation, of sort of like, we're, we're how old? Like we don't feel that old, You know, I honestly don't understand it, like, I'll go it surprises me because of the way I think in my head.

Like I, I always was like, I'm gonna push and push and push. I'm not gonna say if I, if I was a guy, this would happen. I never played that card, but the ageism. Is is just crazy. It's really bad. Absolutely. Absolutely. I tried to, you know, I, I haven't done a comedy special on tv, I think since 2000.

It's gotta be over 10 years and, you know, it's definitely over 10 years, probably 12 years or so. and I, you know, I talk to my representation. "You don't fit the algorithm" with, you know, yet guys who are 60, 65, I mean, like you think of, you know, the great Lewis Black, who I love, I, you know, I love that guy. I love these men.

They're hilarious. But there's, you know, and I'm sure they experience some ageism and, but they still are given platforms and I've just seen the minute you hit 50 or or 55. It's like, No, you're not cool anymore. And, and these people are doing standup who didn't put the work in. You know, like they're getting, if they had a funny video on TikTok or something went viral, they're getting booked in a club because they're gonna fill the seats, even though they don't, they haven't really developed their standup.

Yeah. And so people are gonna go to these clubs and be like, Oh, that's what standup is. I don't, you know, And all the rules keep changing. So even Broadway shows they, they don't hire these people they go through conservatory, they're so fucking talented. You could make them stars.

But you'd rather get a TV person with marginal singing experience or you know, because they'll sell tickets and yeah, our values are shit.

Idelisse: When I think of old women, I think funny.

Judy: Oh, please, Of course.

Idelisse: But I don't think, that's not the stereotype of an old woman. Right? Right. She's not considered funny,

Judy: Well, it depends on who you are really, but yeah. I mean, I perform for people in their twenties all the time, and I make them laugh. Humor and, you know, comedy should not have a demographic like, Oh you're, you know, cause you're, you get funnier as you get older and you're fearless. Like, you don't give a shit anymore like, I don't care. You can't say anything to me I haven't heard before.

Joanne: Did you ever care? Did you ever care?

Judy: Oh, I think, you know, I would get a little like, Oh, right, I shouldn't do that. You know, I, my career definitely took a turn when I came out and I was also told for the first, 20 years of my career, you know, you're too Jewish. Stop with the, you know, dye your hair, blonde, straighten it.

It was like, you're just trying to make me someone I'm not. And, and then until you get to the point where you're like, Oh my God, leave me the fuck alone. I am who I, you know. But that takes a while. I think for some people,

Idelisse: You know, this really circles back to what you were saying in response to the question about who are you the that childlike quality, you know, which has a certain spontaneity fear- fearlessness, playfulness. I think that for many of us, who don't hold onto that as strongly through adulthood, we reclaim it when we're older. Right, right, right. to a certain age, it's like, I don't give a fuck. I don't fucking care. I don't care. I'm too old for that takes on a whole,

Judy: I don't have time for, I, I always say like when people call and they're like, Oh, we really wanna get together, and I'm like, you know, I'll say to Elysa , Um, okay, I have limited time left on this earth and I don't wanna spend any time, you know, like, you know, you get to a certain point where, Nah, I'm not gonna do that.

And, and it's all about life experience. It's just- and the more life experience you have, the funnier you are. And look at, and you look at Joan Rivers 50 years, every decade of her career, you knew exactly where women stood in society because of what she was talking about cause she was talking about stuff that was not supposed to be talked about.

Right. Um, but, you know, and I, as even as a child, I was. I always was like, why are we talking about this? Like, why is everyone acting like this? Like that the fucking elephant isn't sitting right? Like, I really didn't understand

growing up what, what was, what is it to be feminine? It's to be ladylike and docile and not have an opinion, and keep your mouth shut and, you know, hold, hold your fork well, I am a stickler about table matters, but yeah, it's, it's like, you know, think about when you know, women couldn't even get credit cards until, what, 74. 1974.

What the fuck is that?

You know, I'm very tall, so I think that, um, I've had a different experience because I take up a lot of space and men take up a lot of space, and so I've had to deal with being really big. And that's the first thing people see and judge and are like, Oh, wow. And when you think about comedy and comedians, which is exactly what you were saying about telling the truth, that's what we do.

We tell the truth. Um, there's a reason why every panel show has a comedian on there because they're gonna call people out on their shit and they're gonna make a joke to disarm them, you know? That's what we do, but you know, just my body itself is not feminine, you know? Um, just being, I was six feet around 13 years old

ugh, It was fantastic. Um, no, it was terrible. I just got, I just got, you know, bullied all my entire, you know, high school and, and () school and middle school, but, You know, it gave me a thick skin, or I've been humiliated so many times that I can defend myself, you know, as I said before, nothing, It's not, you can't say anything I haven't heard before, but you know, you see, you see hot, sexy women are treated differently.

Than a big, you know, 6'2" loud Jewish lesbian . Um, it's intimidating, you know, but a 6'2" loud Jewish gay guy is hilarious.

When people come up to me and say, even young kids are, well, they're in their thirties, and they're like, I, you, when I was in high school, I, I was so depressed and I watched you, you know? again, representation to see a woman, a gay woman talking about her kids and these people thinking, Oh, I can have a family too, you know?

Um, and when I did "25 Questions for a Jewish Mother", which was based on interviews with jewish mothers around the country, and I, my story into it about becoming a Jewish mother, and I wrote it with my friend Kate Moira Ryan, and, you know, I traveled around with it and it was people would come to the show and come out to their parents afterwards, or orthodox jews who were gay or observant jews would say, I didn't realize I could be gay.

And practice Judaism like all that, telling your story. that's why older women's stories are so important because they've ha they've navigated the world. Through, you know, as women through a lot of shit. Um, and so just sharing your story, that makes me really happy that I have, that my voice resonates with,

Idelisse: you know why I think we've lived to tell the tale, you know?

Think of it, right. You know, we got through all that, there's something that you can, which I think these young women -

Judy: Yeah, you survived and it was, it wasn't, isn't, and it's not fair. It's just not fair, but you have to call it out, but I was never, you know, I played their game like when I would get on stage a lot in the, in the eighties and stuff, um, and even the nineties, you know, these guy comics would get on stage they'd be you know and be like, Oh, our next act is female. Um, and then they'd like lift the mic, stand up really high and to, to the point where they would do it all the time. I would say, don't lift the mic stand up. And they would say that our next act you're in, you're in is a female. Um, and, and so I would literally get on stage, let's have a hand for your mc, he's male, he has penis, a penis, and testicles, and a scrotal sac, let's hear it for him cause he's a man. he's a man. And that's how I dealt with it. Um, I just threw it right back in their face.

Joanne: And do you still have to do that all the time?

Judy: Oh yeah, all the time. You know, it's just so annoying. You know, like, and, and the fact that, you know, people are, don't intentionally do it and don't see what the issue is.

Don't call me a girl. Don't say "Babe", don't you know, "hey honey". No. I'll say, what is it, 1952, you're calling me honey, like I literally, and so many of the women I know don't, they're like, Oh, it's he's, and I'm like, No, but it's not okay.

You know, you tell a woman's story, you might actually, like, a great joke will make you laugh and think maybe this will make you see the world through someone else's eyes, like I, I, you know, even a lot of the stuff about the AIDS crisis, you know, it's always told from the story of the, the man. And yet I, I go look at video or, you know, I followed the AIDS memorial on Instagram and I feel it, you know, I feel like the, the pain and agony of what we went through, but we're, our stories are never told. It's not about that, and so that's, yeah, I think it's really important that we. Share our stories and experiences.

Joanne: And maybe that's your half hour sitcom too.

Idelisse and Joanne: Wait, I just have one more question. If there's anything that you were gonna do over again, like a do over, something different in your life. Would there be anything or maybe anything, or maybe nothing, you know, that you kind of go, I could have gone.

Judy: I mean, the only thing I would've redone, I. I mean, it's so horrible. I, I just wish I had another bathroom in my apartment. , like, I, I could, I would've liked to have, I loved my building, it's like a kibbutz, you know, And my kids- a bigger apartment, I think bigger apartment. Okay. Cause the fuck, the one bathroom is shit.

Idelisse: I hope that you all had as good a time as we did talking to Judy, listening to the conversation.

Joanne: We know that you want more of Judy, and you can get plenty of Judy, whether you listen to her podcast.

Idelisse: What's the name of her podcast?

Joanne: You're killing me.

Idelisse: That's right. which she -

Joanne: No you are, Idelisse. You're killing me. I'm joking.

Idelisse: Oh, that one so funny Joanne. I can barely stand- want another funny one? You know Judy talked about regretting not having that extra bathroom. We wouldn't want her to regret not having the name of her podcast mentioned, Mentioned on Two Old Bitches. You can get a lot more Judy by streaming her on any number of the series that we mentioned, and hopefully one day soon

Joanne: She will have her own streaming series, whatever she calls it, whatever name it is. and you'll be able to see her every week or every night.

Idelisse: Or binge it if you like. And as always, thank you to the Two Old Bitches team

Joanne: Loubna Bouajaj, and Katharine Heller and Melissa Tobias.

Idelisse: And yes, please. You're probably listening to this on a podcast platform. Follow us if you haven't already followed us. And if you have a moment in, haven't yet rated us. Um, we're actually very proud of our rating, which is almost a five.

Joanne: We are very proud of our rating. We're very proud of our blog on Medium, so please check that out too.

And have a great life.

Idelisse: Well at least, uh, We are doing this in the summer. Have a good summer.

Joanne: Yeah. Bye.