Ayesha Pande – Understanding the World Differently | S8 E02

Fifteen years ago, Ayesha Pande, a successful editor with top publishers (e.g. Farrar Straus and Giroux) struck out on her own to build a mission-driven literary agency with an antiracist focus based in Harlem.  Ayesha Pande Literary has flourished and is known for launching an award-winning, bestselling and inclusive list of authors, scholars, and emerging writers. Its team of almost all BIPOC women agents represent acclaimed authors such as Ibram X. Kendi (How To Be An Antiracist), Danielle Evans (The Office of Historical Corrections), Jean Chen Ho (Fiona and Jane) and Lisa Ko (The Leavers). Ayesha is on the board of the AALA (Association of American Literary Agents) where she founded the Committee on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and helped launch the non-profit Literary Agents of Change. Entering her 60s, she is a “woman who has not yet peaked.” We are delighted to introduce you to Ayesha and her charming Jack Russells, Milo and Lola, whose occasional barking enlivened our conversation.

+ TRANSCRIPT

Idelisse and Joanne: Welcome to Two Old Bitches. I'm Idelisse Malavé, and I'm Joanne Sandler. And we're Two Old Bitches. We're interviewing our women friends and women who could be our friends. Listen as they share stories about how they reinvent themselves.

Ayesha: I think that what we experience socially as women of a certain age, you know, where we become entirely invisible is also true to a greater or lesser extent in books, you know, I mean obviously there's always exceptions, but, uh, for the vast majority, I think that there is sort of this, this bias against older people.

Idelisse and Joanne: Hi Joanne, were you as surprised as I was to hear that there's ageism in publishing , there's ageism anywhere. It was so good though, to have a literary agent our guest, um, Ayesha Pande our amazing guest, Ayesha Pande um, a literary agent confirm that from where she sits there are not enough books that feature older women or written by older women.

Um, it kind of goes with our, um, screen bitches complaint, right? That because so many movies come from books, if books aren't featuring older women, then movies also are not gonna create space. And especially for older women of color or older women from groups that are never represented. And I actually happened to read, I was so shocked.

I didn't know when I got it. A mystery, um, this weekend called the Department of Rare Books and Special Collections, and the protagonist was a librarian. Um, but she was 60 years old, but she was, you know, she had gray hair and you know, whatever. And I was so happy, um, having someone I could remotely identify with, be the protagonist in this book, but enough of an aside.

Exactly. Let's get to the subject of this episode, which, The Ayesha Pande Literary Agency and Ayesha, and she founded the agency more than 15 years ago. It stands out. It's a boutique agency. I think she has about seven or eight agents working with her. All of whom, except for one, an affiliate agent, all of whom are women, and most of whom are women of color, and she represents Joanne, wonderful writers.

Well, she represents amazing writers of color who have had such influence on the thinking of so many people, including I, Ibram X. Kendi, who wrote How to be an Anti-Racist and so many other books that have just expanded my world. I mean, Right. Fiona and Jane, I think is a novel that's, um, out there, came out recently that it's authors, but you said Ide and I think it's important that Ayesha is an unsung hero.

She is. Um, she is an unsung hero because she is and has been for 15 years, um, promoting BIPOC authors employing and working with BIPOC mostly women agents, and now she's enjoying this wonderful success, right? Because with Black Lives Matter and particularly these past few years, there's this suddenly it's very cool.

Right? Yeah. But I mean, so she is, She is someone who did something that was important to her for reasons that you'll hear during the conversation. And the great part of this story is it turned out really well for everybody. Her good politics have contributed Exactly. That's right. And we love those stories.

Right? Right. Too rare. Too rare. So let's hear from Ayesha. Great.

Idelisse: So we often start with a simple question. Some people find it annoying and we recognize it's a hard one, but it served us well for the most part. But, uh, who are you?

Ayesha: I guess I'm the product of all of my 60 years worth of experiences and I think that I would say, um, that I'm a woman who is now who has not yet peaked.

And I have not yet entirely figured out, you know, how to talk about myself, which is, you know, um, I think that I have for my entire life, um, identified as an outsider. And so I think a lot of my choices, both professionally and personally, have had to do with addressing that in some way. I, uh, by birth, I am half Indian and half German, and I grew up in India, Germany and New Zealand, um, before coming to this country to go to college, and I never intended to stay in America.

Joanne: So there we are just getting started with our interview, really getting into it and there's this thunderstorm where Ayesha is, well, we're in bright Sunnyland in Manhattan, and all of a sudden we are Serenaded by her two Jack Russells: Milo and Lola.

Idelisse: Who we totally love. We even got to see them on, on Zoom a little bit, but throughout you may hear them barking and um, we just kept going.

Ayesha: There's a thunderstorm going on and he has to bark at the thunder, and then the other one has to, There's two Jack Russells.

Idelisse: Anyway, but you were saying, america in the eighties.

Ayesha: Yes. Uh, it, it, i, it felt that America was in some ways the most sort of a, uh, a) the most diverse country I had ever lived in, and one that seemed to be, um, at least on the surface, you know, the most welcoming of all of my various identities.

I do think that, you know, I, I do think about those things a little bit differently now, but, um, I, I have, you know, made a, you know, a life for myself here and a career for myself. I, I studied international affairs in graduate school and then, um, became an editor. So I completely sort of made a turn in the road compared to what I studied, um, and hopped around from various, um, publishing houses, uh, for 15 years, as an editor before I, um, I launched my agency. And, um, I, you know, that sort of sense of looking for, you know, identifying as an outsider translated into looking for work that in some way reflected that experience.

And I was interested in how writers wrote about that notion, that experienced that idea. Are gonna be able to use this with the dogs barking in background?

You know, over the last few years, you know, we've really exploded. Um, and part of that is because of the kinds of books that I have, you know, always sought out that had a whole new relevance in, you know, as the publishing industry and the country was taking, you know, a much harder look at itself and realizing, you know, that, that the stories, you know, by, by the kinds of folks that we represent, you know, are largely underrepresented or not told, not heard.

And, um, so our, our agency all of a sudden became really popular. So, and then, um,

Idelisse: That's good.

Ayesha: Yes.

Idelisse: That's excellent.

Aeysha: It's, you know, it's not something that I felt would ever happen because it's always been such a struggle to get books, uh, to, to persuade editors that these books had merit and value. . Um, and you know, I also know how, how trend driven the industry is.

So I, I'm not necessarily expecting it to last forever, but, you know, we are certainly excited by the fact that people are paying attention to, to what we are doing. And of course, you know, from our perspective, you know, it's also taken on a sort of mission driven aspect. You know, as we, we feel that, you know, in order to counter like these dark elements that are, um, descending on the country, you know, that it's, it's a, it's a, an act of resistance to, you know, to help bring books like this into the world.

Idelisse: Resistance and real defiance. I love, I think it's, Maybe on social media, you talk about the fact that you are anti-racist. Yeah.

On your website you talk about underrepresented voices and lifting them up, and then one has the pleasure of, you know, looking at your team. And your team is predominantly women? I think there's one male affiliate agent that I saw there, but again, predominantly women of color. Yes,

Ayesha: he's our token white male.

Idelisse: Uh, And then you look at, you know, your author's page and I go scrolling through that and I go, Wow, look at this. Talk about inclusion. It's really phenomenal!

Ayesha: Yeah. Uh, but not always, you know, And I think that would be, the website obviously doesn't reflect, you know, how, how hard it was, you know, to persuade editors, you know, to, um, to see the, the merit in these books. And, um, you know, having been an editor, I also understand what, you know, the mandate is that, that editors are given, you know, they are told to find things that they can fall in love with, you know, they, that they feel completely, entirely passionate about.

Um, and, you know, the way that, um, the job is portrayed is that you have to be entirely in love with these books that you acquire, because then it takes, it's, it's so much work to chaperone them through to the publication process, which it is. But then if you think about, you know, if you look at most editors, and if you think about, you know, not only, um, who they are, uh, you know, ethnically, but also socioeconomically, then you, you end up with a very small white elite group of folk who are acquiring books that they can engage with that, they can connect with that. They can relate to.

And so if I'm working on my incredible malaysian novel, you know, that, that, that is about, you know, sort of the rise of Islam, you know, in Malaysia, you know, over the last, you know, 20 years and sort of portrays, you know, a family wrestling with that, who is there in the publishing industry that I can send that to, who could connect with that story?

So I, you know, Many of the authors were now incredibly successful and are being lauded and celebrated on my website are are ones, you know, that had to struggle really, really hard to find their start or, you know, um, had to take an incredibly low advance or start in, in an independent house, you know? Um, and then of course when you think about that, You know, they also have to make a living some way or the other because the publishing company certainly wasn't going to give them an advance from which they could live.

Joanne: And Ayesha, I'm just curious, you just turned 60. You know, for a lot of people, men and women, and particularly women who are working and they're in an industry or a sector where at a certain point they think about being of an age where they're going to stop working or do something else, or their expiration date is arrived.

In publishing it's different though, right? Is it like, do you think of your trajectory as having a lifespan? Or is it endless?

Ayesha: I do think about my trajectory having a lifespan, even though I feel like I haven't peaked yet. And you know, you know, we're, we are growing in all of these exciting ways and I'm still learning so much.

Um, but I also, um, want to free myself from this ethic under which I've labored, you know, all of my life. This sort of whole Protestant work ethic that feels like, you know, my whole worth, my self worth and my value is completely tied up in what I do work wise. I mean, I do feel very passionately about it, so I assume that in some way or the other, I would like to do some work related to that because I literally love editing.

You know, I, the craft of editing is something so fun to me. But I, the, the other thing that I've found is, I, I think that my generation has really sort of screwed up the planet for , you know, for the next generation. And as you know, as hard as I'm trying to, you know, really learn and find ways of setting things right I also think that some, the best thing that we can maybe do is to step aside at some point, you know, and let other voices be heard, younger voices, because we've made such a massive thing.

It's also a question of equity. You know, if you, if you really want to live by, by these values of not only uplifting the voices of authors, but also, you know, um, bring along people who are underrepresented within the industry itself, you know, and, and really changing the face of the industry. Then part of that is you have to make space, um, at, give them a seat at the table.

And I found, you know, like I'm the, I'm on the board of the trade organization for the literary agency, uh, AALA: American Association of Literary Agents and I founded the, uh, the DEI committee there and, um, and so we are, you know, we're working on identifying and figuring out how to dismantle, you know, the structural inequities and the barriers to entry into, into, um, careers.

And of course it's incredibly hard and it's even harder with literary agents because, you know, we are all these small, tiny little companies. And, um, uh, there's no sort of, um, transparency around salaries, um, or like career paths. Um, and so, you know, that's part of what I'm trying to also think about, you know, at my own agency is like, how do I literally help people, you know, who maybe don't have a trust fund to, you know, to um, actually be able to make a, a real living, you know, in, in publishing and, you know, how can I help them become stakeholders?

So, you know, and part of that is going to require me to eventually step aside.

Joanne: Does your agency have a life beyond you?

Ayesha: Well, that's what I'm, try, I'm trying to work out, you know, I want to make sure that it has a life beyond me and I think, you know, I don't want it to be so entirely just, you know, an agency that, that it, that is entirely about me and my identity.

Um, so I've started having conversations with you know, some of my colleagues about what exactly is going to look like, you know, and, and to actually come up with a plan.

I've set up the agency by making it exactly the opposite of , what my experiences have been in other agencies, you know, where I was, uh, where I was presented with a sort of agreement where, you know, my contract would only be renewed if I you know, met certain monetary goals, you know, X number of dollars of contracts per year.

And, um, I knew, I mean, I signed the contract, but I, I knew that I would never be able to, to do that, you know, given a) how I work, you know, with, with a sort of deliberation and, um, slowness of speed, you know, And, and secondly, because of the kinds of books that I represent, I mean, I represent literary fiction.

Literary fiction never gets the big box. And scholarly, you know, narrative nonfiction. So I, um, you know, I'd never have set any goals for the people who work with me, you know, I just want them to be, I want them to really believe in our mission, and I want them to, to really take ownership and they have, you know, they're, they're all absolutely amazing.

Idelisse: You know, one of the other things I've noticed about social media is not only do you have the dogs at the office on occasion and a cat, apparently, but you have the best birthday cakes I seen on social. They're incredible! Gorgeous construction. I mean, it looks like you work really hard, but also have a very good time in that office.

Ayesha: I can't take any credit for that. That is, um, our wonderful colleague, Zoe Walker, who is, you know, on top of, you know, being super hard working and such an incredible addition to our team also makes these amazing cakes.

Idelisse: You've talked to us about the agency, right? The trajectory of the agency in, in the future. What about you? Right? When, when you know you're not perhaps spending as much time much as you love editing, maybe not spending as much time on editing, what will you be spending time?

Ayesha: Well, honestly, that that's the hard piece of the puzzle for me to figure out. You know, I, um, I've had two these, two things in my life that I've completely given myself over to, you know, the first being my sons, um, who are both grown now. And, um, the other being, you know, my, my agency. And so, um, stepping away from motherhood, you know, has already been something that I've had to wrestle with.

You know, they, they really don't need me very much anymore. Um, even though I'm very lucky to still, you know, be very closely, um, well in close communication with both of them and, um, and then like, stepping away from something like this that I love so much, you know, what will those next 20 years look like?

You know, and I, I want them to be, you know, an exciting adventure. Uh, but what exactly that will be, I don't know. I mean, I, I'd love to travel a lot, you know, but it's all the usual things, you know, travel and, and pursue some of the things that I've really wanted to do for a long time, which is to perfect my Spanish that I've been working on for so long.

I keep on taking classes, but then, you know, as you get older it gets harder and harder to remember anything.

Joanne: Actually, we wanted to ask also in your amazing (), in your kind- on the pulse of publishing, is there more interest or less interest, or different interest in literature about older women, like where does that kind of fit into, do? What do you see in terms of where that sits in, what people are interested, what you're interested in?

Ayesha: It's, it's interesting because as much as you know, there's been a shift in embracing, um, people from other backgrounds. Uh, it's actually a very ageist industry, and it, it's been that uplift the young ingenue, you know, the, the young, um, like debut author, it's so much more difficult to, um, to place books by older writers or about, um, about older protagonists.

And I've, I've tried it a few times because I find old women, you know, endlessly fascinating. Um, but, uh, it's not, it's definitely, it's, it's definitely a battle.

I think that what we experience socially as, as women of a certain age, you know, where we become entirely invisible is also true to a greater or lesser extent in books, you know, I mean obviously there's always exceptions, but, uh, for the vast majority, I think that there is sort of this, this bias against older people and Oh, I was, I was saying that when I was an editor at a large publishing company, um, I saw one of the most brilliant, you know, editors who, who had worked there for many years and had, had a very illustrious career, you know, being pushed out and, you know, this sort of, um, sense that, you know, she doesn't get what's relevant anymore. You know, sort of her - she doesn't know what's in the zeitgeist, you know, or what, what's trendy and things like that and so this, this sort of contemptuous attitude towards her is I think, very much, uh, a reflection of what we see in the industry at large.

Joanne: Do you feel it? As you're getting older in the industry.

Ayesha: Well, it's interesting because I think that I would feel it, um, except, you know, interestingly enough, my, my agency sort of exploded and so I am being, um, offered a lot of opportunities, you know, that come with what, you know, success is, is defined as in the industry than ever before.

You know, so invited to be on boards and invited to galas and things like that, you know. Um, so I'm not feeling it so much, uh, in my career. I am feeling it though when I, when I speak to younger editors and, um, I think it's because, you know, the way that people think about identity and about, you know, all the various, you know, intersectional identities is, is very, very different.

You know, and I, it, it's not just a question of vocabulary, it's a question of, you know, how we think about ourselves in the world. And, you know, I'm very much a product of my generation, for better or for worse. So it's, it's really hard to, you know, all of a sudden get rid of those biases or those, you know, notions of, of like, Oh, you have to, you know, pay your dues and, you know, you should be grateful that you can, you know, work here, you know, in this amazing industry, even if it's for a pittance and all of those kinds of things.

Yeah. And you should, you should just, um, suck it up. Yeah. I mean, that's how I was raised.

Idelisse: We love stories, you know, we love storytelling. We love listening to stories. It seems to me that it's probably an affinity that we share with you, right? You must have a, So, and again, it's sort of like storytelling, you know? What, is it a bad storytelling you love or elements of a good story? I mean, where, where does that lie for you? That passion, that feeling about story and storytelling?

Ayesha: I think that, you know, I, I, I was only always a, a very, um, solitary child, you know, And so, you know, for me, as a child, you know, stories represented this, this escape and also, um, allowed me to like really. Lose myself in, in, in those characters, you know, who were different from me, but you know whom I could, who, who maybe helped me imagine who I could be, you know, or what I could be like.

And so it's, it's actually not so different now. I mean, the experience of, of reading a really good book. Um, and the way that one can lose oneself in it, um, is, is still very much the same thing and the, and the ways in which the characters, you know, come to life so that you're sort of building these images, you know, in your mind.

But then beyond that, I think, you know, literature, uh, to me more than anything else is, is a, a way of helping me understand the world differently, you know, by, by, by reading about how a character engages with a relationship or thinks about things. You know, it's, it's, it's philosophy and history and, and economics and all of that, you know, that, that comes out through these, you know, through these amazing characters.

If you work with writers all, all the time, then you realize, a) how incredibly hard it is to write a book and b) You know what it, what it takes, you know, both not only creatively, but even just to master the craft of it. You know? I mean, you have to have the talent and then you have to master the craft, and, and that takes years and years and years.

I have the most enormous respect for people who are able to do that, and I would never, I mean, I caught myself lucky to like be able to play some sort of role in that, but, no. I haven't, and also, I'm not of that generation. I don't have enough, um, imagination to, to write a novel. And I'm not of the generation that wants to sort of necessarily confess her own, you know, stories.

I'll take them to my grave.

Joanne: And isn't it, isn't it also kind of like the separation of church and state? Can you be a good literary agent if you are also a writer?

Ayesha: Um, that's a good question. I mean, there are agents out there who are writers, and I do ask myself that question sometimes. You know, on the one hand, I think it gives you greater empathy for the process.

Um, you know, and I think that you can probably engage and connect with your writers around that creative process, um, in a way that you might not if you, if you're not a writer, but, um, But is there ever like a competitive aspect that comes up? I, I don't know. I don't know, but you know, I've definitely never aspired to it.

Idelisse: Um, I very much appreciated that you talked about editing though, as a real craft, right? And a real talent and skill 'cause a real, a good editor is priceless, you know, for, for people who write everything I've heard from writers, you know, good editor is really someone who can, you know, help you hear yourself almost, right?

Um, so you can write what, what's going on there, um, and be truer to yourself.

Ayesha: And ask you the hard questions, right? You know, like, what, what do you mean here? You know, I, I think that a lot of what what we do, you know, is just really ask the questions that help you clarify things.

Idelisse: I should mention that she is mixed race German and Indian. Her father was Indian, her mother was German, and that she appears and we saw her. You know, she can easily be mistaken for someone who's white or you know what some of us call white passing, and I think she refers to it that way as well as a result this part, this aspect of her outsiderness is something that she shares with her husband.

Ayesha: I think one of the things that drew us together is that he's also, uh, a half half, um, his, his mother, like mine is German and his father is Puerto Rican. So, um, you know. And both of us, uh, also share, um, on the one hand, you know, the privilege of being white appearing, you know? Um, and thus being able to pass and be accepted in, in spaces, you know, that, that, you know, that so many others can't.

But along with that, you know, it also makes it, in some ways a constant intellectual exercise, you know, to engage with that, uh, the brown sides of our, our brown fathers, you know, Especially because neither one of us had the kinds of, uh, connections with those countries or, uh, with those people that, that really helped us, um, connect, you know, deeply, uh, emotionally with those, with those sides of our identities, you know?

So, um, my, my parents were divorced when I was three and my mother took us to Germany. So I, um, I went back later, um, when I, after I had graduated from high school and lived with my father in Kolkata, and, you know, I wore sarees and, I studied Hindi and, you know I tried to study Indian history and all of that, but, um, by that time I was already formed.

Um, I, I was very much, you know, of a Western mindset and, um, you know, India is a very especially at that time is very patriarchal. And, um, it didn't also, it didn't matter that I wore sarees or my bindi, you know, or had my hair long because, um, everybody always saw me as white. And I would, you know, and people would ask me where I was from, and I would argue with them on the street because they'd said: "No, you're not from India."

You know, they wouldn't believe me. So, um, so it's, it's been, it's been tricky because I also don't identify as white. Um, but I, I feel like I always have to give an explanation for my identities. Um, And, um, and so it's, it's this constant intellectual engagement and, and sort of advocacy. But at the same time, I guess, you know, how deeply am I connected with my Indianness?

I don't know. You know, I spent eight years as a child in Germany, so I know those songs and I have that comfort food and I, you know, I, I, um, I read the fairy tales and I speak the language fluently, and so it's, it's a very different kind of connection with that culture.

Idelisse: What you said is so interesting and certainly something I'm familiar with, that, you know, identity is both what, how we see ourselves and how we are seen.

So I don't think of myself as white. I think of myself as Puerto Rican, but most people see me and you know, the similar arguments to the ones it sounds like you have, It's like you're white, you're white, you're white, you know, it's sort of that. Um, and there's, that's intellectual, but I, at least I can say for myself, there's an emotional realm to that.

Right, I appreciate being an outsider. I got a lot from being an outsider, but there were also costs. Is that your experience?

Ayesha: Very much so. Very much so. I wouldn't trade it, but I definitely made a different, um, I made a different, uh, decision for my children. I decided that at all costs I was going to stay put in one place and make sure that they were able to put down roots and, and really have, you know, a strong connection to their family and their American identity, their, their father's African American. So, you know, it was even more important because that's not a part of their identity that I could help them with, you know, And they're both boys, you know, And so it was really important that they had role models and people in their lives, even though I'm not together with their father anymore.

Idelisse: We have a couple of questions we'd like to ask. One is when you look back at your life, any surprises or regrets? Like you go, God, I never thought I would end up, you know, whatever. Anything like that? Some or regrets. "I wish I would've-" you know,

Ayesha: I never thought that I would, you know, that my, my. Life would take this particular journey. I mean, first, you know, before I grew to be 5'10, I wanted to be a ballerina. So , so that didn't work. Um, I certainly never thought that I would end up in America and I never thought that I would be an agent.

Even when I was an editor, I never thought I would be an agent, you know? So, I feel like I, I've always sort of fallen into things rather than have made, you know, really deliberate and strategic choices. So, um, but, but really the trajectory of my life, I have no regrets about. The only thing that I do feel really sad about is, um, you know, my being so far apart from my family, my own family.

You know, my, um, I left home when I was 17, and since then, my mother and I have never lived on the same continent. Um, my, my older sister, she passed away, um, seven years ago. But before that, you know, we were also, you know, always really far away, you know, she was in New Zealand and then she moved to England and then she moved to France.

And at best we saw each other once a year. And my younger sister lives in New Zealand, you know, so, um, I, I, that sort of family connection is, is something that I've always, always, always longed for. And, you know, I still really miss it. You know, I miss that, having that in my life.

Joanne: Well, you did. That was an incredibly satisfying conversation and so timely, because it's summer as we're recording this and time for summer reading, and what better list could you find than Ayesha's list?

Idelisse: So we often recommend or share with our listeners the website for our guests, but in this case, we're urging you to go to the website Ayesha Pande Literary because you will find not just all the amazing authors that she represents, but so many wonderful books, some of which we're guessing you have read that she has ushered into the world,

Joanne: Including children's books, adult books, fiction, fiction, non-fiction rep.

Idelisse: You know, it's, um, quite amazing and you know, it actually, we said it before, we'll say it again.

I think Ayesha is an unsung heroine for the work that she's done in the world, and we are so grateful that she's enjoying some success as well.

Joanne: And tell people about Ayesha's List. Tell people about Two old Bitches podcast and get them to listen. That would be a great thing to do in the summer as you're lying around, staying out of the hype sun

We are so grateful that you listened, uh, today and hope you'll listen to others.

Idelisse: And hope you'll follow us on whatever platform you are listening to us on. And check out our blog, please on Medium. And what else should we share?

Joanne: I think that's a long list of to-dos for listeners. So,

Idelisse: And it's summer.

And it's summer. Be back soon.