Jody Oberfelder - A Creative Move a Day | S8 E06

Gutsy, vital, creative Jody Oberfelder is committed to a life of ‘becoming,’ recognizing that becoming older is also about learning to trust your voice and continue to advance. This New York-based choreographer, director and filmmaker – leading Jody Oberfelder Projects (JOP) -- considers herself ‘mid-career’ at 68. She continues to challenge herself to create live performances that are inclusive and collective and that center each participant’s experience (check out her performances of Walking to Present in Brooklyn and Life Travelers on bridges in Munich, London and Philadelphia). She’s loved ‘making stuff up’ since childhood and continues to do so in public spaces and theaters around the world. In her words: “I think the challenges as I move forward in life and get older and older and older and older and older is not to mistrust that every wrinkle is earned.” TOB Idelisse met Jody in a Feldenkrais class and they are both passionate followers of their amazing teacher, Rebecca Davis; just as we think you’ll become passionate followers of Jody Oberfelder once you hear her illuminating and heartfelt reflections on aging, creativity, inclusivity and the importance of a daily practice.   

---

+ TRANSCRIPT

Joanne & Idelisse: Welcome to Two Old Bitches. I'm Idelisse Malavé, and I'm Joanne Sandler. And we're two old bitches. We're interviewing our women friends and women who could be our friends. Listen as they share stories about how they reinvent themselves.

Jody: Are we defined by becoming older? I don't wanna just, you know, sometimes I'll just feel like, can't do that. I'm old. I mean, of course I, I haven't been able to jump straight up and down in ballet class in a while, but I'm still able to do a lot.

Idelisse: That was Jody Oberfelder, whom I met in a virtual Feldenkrais class. I still have to meet her in person. I think it's been two years now.

Joanne: You're quite feldenkrais promoter.

Idelisse: I am. I am such a fan. It has changed my life. Um, and there are many dancers in that class. Mm-hmm. and like Jody, uh, they have this attitude and this way of approaching movement that I love, which is, as she just said, she's not mourning what she can't do that she can't jump up, straight and down in ballet class. She works with what she's able to do and we heard the same thing from another dancer, choreographer Marlies Yearby

Joanne: Who we interview our last episode, so this the second in our series, in series of three interviews with dancers because as you said last time, dance artists, choreographers and dancers.

That's right. And what a pleasure to talk to Jody, who is so amazingly interactive and innovative in the way that she choreographs and locates her pieces.

Idelisse: All of her work as she describes it, uh, is about creating this immersive experience for audience where it's audiences, it's participatory, it's about connection, opportunities to think about ideas. She started her own company. Mm-hmm. , Jody Oberfelder Projects in the late eighties, So she's been doing this for quite a while and her work's been recognized by the New York Times, you know, which, uh, means a lot to us. It does here in New York and, and probably elsewhere as being quote, full of invention and wit. And she is, she's funny and energetic and strong and,

Joanne: and really brave, I have to say, because she just takes her performances out into the world and she is willing to just see what happens.

Idelisse: And she really has traveled the world. She, you know, all parts of Europe and she's performed the Victorian Albert Museum, Korea. She's, yeah, she's just been everywhere. And here in New York, um, she has performed on Governor's Island and, um, the Schim, I never say this correctly. Schimmel Theater at Pace University, all sorts of places.

And also the, I think this coming, their coming season is at the Gibney Dance Center. Mm. And that starts in February.

Joanne: I can't wait to see what she does live and to be part of it. Because you don't just watch it. You're actually participating

Idelisse: And it's, it's artfully done. And we, we haven't been able to see a live performance. Thank you, Covid. Uh, but we have seen video clips. You know, it's a thing of beauty.

Joanne: Oh, and, and exciting. And surprise, surprise. We start this episode by asking the question, idelisse.

Idelisse: That we love to ask and we hope you ask it of people you meet and already know. Who are you?

Jody: Oh, I am a feisty woman.

I suppose I was a tomboy in my youth. I probably would've been gender fluid if it was that time of reconciling that not everybody is a hundred percent female or male in a patriarchal society. It was pretty much, you know, putting you down for being a woman diminutive. Um, I was told tomboy is totally not a good word to use anymore, but let's just say I enjoyed activities that the boys did. I was athletic. I am still athletic. Um, I am someone who is just now taking stock of this trajectory called life and where I am in it now that I'm becoming older. And that's infiltrating into my aesthetics and my work right now so that I am taking all that energy that used to be artistically funneled into making forms that show connections between people.

Uh, I am an artist who now wants to physically do that. I wanna connect people to a place to themselves. Uh, and each other. Who am I? Um, this is, I am a lot about my art . Um, but I am also a mother of two amazing kids. Uh, I think that also has infused the way I look at life. There was a while I was pretty confused.

It felt unfair. The amount of work, the job of being a mother. It was like, wait a minute. But you know, it, it also was a necessity to be there for another human being. And I don't know, it changed my art also. I made art out of my kids, you know. I Involved my daughter in a dance called Mother Other, and I made a dance for mothers and babies called Rock Me Mama that got a lot of play. Like we really performed it a lot with many different casts and it really wasn't empowerment dance. And I made a dance for nine pregnant women. Well, there was supposed to be 10, but one had to go on bed rest. No . And since that, that period where I just looked around on a cold, rainy day and there was no school and dragged my daughter to the studio, like from that moment I realized, well, you know what?

It's all connected. And so I identify as a woman who's had a lot of eras of living. Uh, I've lived through hippie time and punk time. I was a total punk. I sang in a band for three years and played Cbgb's and those kind of things. yeah, I think I'm just discovering now that I'm older, my voice, or at least realizing I've had a voice all along but trusting it more. So that's, that's the good part.

Joanne: Jody, you used a phrase that, I just wanna just ask you how you think about it. You said becoming older. what is, what is becoming older mean? Like how, what do you think about when you think about that?

Jody: That we become older every minute. And what are you gonna do in each moment to make that becoming older, uh, newer?

So I am not gonna give into those sad things like, Oh, this hurts, that hurts. I don't wanna be at a dinner party where everybody's talking about their latest doctor appointments. You know, like, okay. Right. And then , I don't even remember what thirties dinner parties were like, but I don't want that everything to downgrade.

I really think becoming older is a chance to use everything you know and employ your essence of living with grace in the world, you know, it's, it's not like we have to go retreat and be invisible. I mean, as, as I really made a lot of feminist piece, I think I made feminist piece, I did a piece called Madame Ovary that was kind of a hoot and I as I was making that the whole, uh, non-gendered issue was right in my face.

So it's like, Oh, I was gonna make a piece that was pro-woman, but then, you know, what's going on now? And are we defined by our gender? Are we defined by becoming older? I don't wanna just, you know, sometimes I'll just feel like, can't do that. I'm old. I mean, of course, I, I haven't been able to jump straight up and down in ballet class in a while, but I'm still able to do a lot and the becoming older part I think is a real tool and you can really mentor others. I don't feel diminished. There's moments I do where I feel, Oh, you know, well, I just didn't get a grant because I was told I'm not mid-career anymore. That kind of thing. It's like, Oh, you know,

Idelisse: older and penalized for being older.

Jody: Yeah. I don't think there should be these, I mean, everybody should get a chance. I mean, I think young artists should get a chance. Mid-career artists should get a chance, but there's a real gap to, uh, respecting this. People who have I don't know, people who are still making work when they're like mid-career doesn't have an age. I hope I'm mid-career always like in the middle of that creative moment.

Idelisse: So, jody, I'm 75. Joanne is 71 going on 72 in a few months. Um, how old are you?

Jody: I'm 68.

Idelisse: Okay. You're, you're a young thing. 68. . Right. And as a dancer, are you, from what I've seen, you're still dancing. I mean, you may not be jumping straight up and down, but you are still dancing. Yes?

Jody: Yeah. If I don't connect my mind and my body every single day in some way, aside from those days where you just know you're exhausted and you need to rest, I, I don't feel like myself, and it's always been that way. I have a body practice and it switches around like sometimes it's giving myself a ballet bar.

Sometimes it's feldenkrais. feldenkrais has been a dream, and Rebecca Davis is such a dreamy teacher who keeps, you know, keeps having me slow down enough to observe and not these quick like Instagram tutorials of how to mobilize your shoulder blades, you know, But like actually knowing how your arms work.

Like I can still learn that, you know, why have my shoulders been up to my ears?

I have a dance practice, a creative practice, and I think that there's times that feel like they're fallow periods where I'm not busy enough. I like to be busy and I just have to say, Oh, well, you know, things are kind of resettling so you can reset and, um, you're, you're processing. So write something and it'll come out like what you're really thinking about. Maybe it's not making up a move a day, although I try to do, have a creative move a day or thought a day. That helps. Well, you know, we all have rituals and morning rituals and how excited are you every day to make coffee like. So, yeah, I have my, I have my routines, but I don't want it to feel like a routine and I don't wanna, I don't wanna feel old. That's why I think becoming older is a much nicer way to say it. becoming older can also be advancing?

I wish, I wish it was a metaphor for advancing, becoming more lived in.

Idelisse: In Spanish actually it's "to mature" is the same word for ripening.

So people ripen, right? So I always say, you know, - , you know, I am more ripe than I was before each and every day. So I think it, it just you made me think of that. But when

Jody: Can I just write that down for a sec? I don't wanna forget that

Yeah. I mean, you don't wanna pick that fruit until it's mature, right, ?

Idelisse: That's right. Um, and yes, eventually the fruit does decay. I, I, yeah. Mm-hmm. , I do cake that's eaten and or gets eaten at the height or too soon when it's green. Um, we also, in Spanish, when we talk about older women, particularly older people, um, who try to act as if they were young things.

Um, we called them, um, now a green unripe old woman. Mm-hmm. , uh, right When you try to be something else, but enough about that, enough about Spanish. When did you start, when did you start dancing?

Jody: Um, I just have one more thing, just so I'm not, I like to think rather than mature or ripe, You know? Hmm. To be vital to feel alive.

Like not dead yet, like vitality is everything. And you can get into a real mushy self pity thing anybody does. 30 year old does. Um, what was your question?

Idelisse: I wanted to know. That's really helpful and good to hear. Um, we're into vitality as well. When did you start dancing and did you, were you first a dancer and become a choreographer?

Were you always a dancer, choreographer? Tell us a little bit about your trajectory.

Jody: Okay, I'm gonna try to say this in a new way. I was a real playful kid. I made up games. I danced in front of the reflective, uh, door in our hallway. I had a bunch of kids in the neighborhood all meet in the vacant lot and we built little, uh, stick jumps and pretended that we were horses.

And played for hours this way. We were just really physically in our imagination, and I went to a summer camp for seven years that had a strong Indian, Native American indigenous tradition, and every year, the second half of the summer, we would learn Native American dances that were the same every time. So you start out with the Zuni rain dance and the Elk dance, where you would hold a twig to your forehead and your sacrum and you'd rub antlers with people.

Um, there were probably 12 steps, but they told the story of the Indian, and at the end it was called the Ghost Dance, where the Indian culture died out. And certain people would get spirited away during rest hour to learn secret parts. And I, I got noticed for my natural ability to dance, even though, you know, the people who were chosen to be the Eagles could do the split leaps, I could do the real grounded. Um, my favorite was bad boy. Where I got to be the rebellious teenager who had spit on his elders. Huh. And go with a stick, you know, in the air, uh, doing a low skipping.

I was very athletic. And then I went to college and walked into my first modern dance class at the urging of a friend, and that was it. And this guy came from New York who taught improvisation and composition. And then that was really it. Like I realized, oh, I like to make things up. I, you know, there are other people who learn things really quickly, like they just have that bone in their body.

I can do it, but thing that I exercise and practice more is the, uh, choreographing, making things up, even though I've danced with different people. And learned from their processes. There's, it, it's been a, it was a real quick realization that I needed to move to New York. Also away from

Idelisse: Where did you grow up?

Jody: I grew up in Detroit. At the height of Motown great music, but we lived in the city until I was in fifth grade.

I figured out slowly that creating dances that have a concept that usually was about people or emotions, which was kind of old fashioned, you know, to to be emotional in the dance world at the time, like for 30 years it's been post Judson Church and I have utter respect for that. In fact, life traveler is more Judson than anything cuz it's very task like moving the suitcases and using them as objects and say

Idelisse: Who Judson Church is?

Jody: Oh, Judson Church was a movement that, I'll just give it a broad stroke definition. It moved away from codified vocabulary like ballet or even Martha Graham or Merce Cunningham. It was a rebellion to say, even walking is a dance.

Pedestrians could do work. And it kind of followed the same time as Fluxus and the art movement happenings, creating spaces and environments for, uh, non virtuosic kind of performing. Yvonne Rainer was a big leader and she's written several books. She's an interesting woman to speak with. Yeah, so in dance, as in everything, styles keep evolving, but I feel our generation has been very much influenced by the Judson Church movement, and I believe that we are not pandering to the rich and the bourgeois class anymore, but I still love a good ballet. You know, I, I go both ways. I'd like virtuosity, but there's times where I can just admit this is show off dance and I'm not into it, You know, if it's felt and embodied and the person is really. Almost translucent in their execution like good gymnasts, you know, you're just sort of flying with them. Right? It's very hard to define dance. To dance as an art because it disappears. We don't have the ephemera of visual art to hang onto and I've been archiving my work, which has been fascinating. Um, you know what I'm really into. Contact sheets I had someone who's 29 say, What's a contact sheet?

And I was like, Oh my god. You know. Well, we used to, we used to document work on film, and then you choose which photo you would like because the person would get the, the celluloid developed and placed it on a piece of paper, and then you'd get this document, which was sort of like, stop action. If someone was good and they caught the moment to moment in stills.

So looking at contact sheets, I really love the, um, the visual of it and also seeing the, the photos that I didn't choose, right. Those were the in between moments, and that's also like our memories were, it's like what kind of stuff pops back into our heads? What triggers memory? Anyway, it's been an interesting chance to survey, uh, what I've done in the world so far, and not that I'm world famous in a household name.

I, I don't even think that matters. You know, it's just a conversation with the future. That's why I'm doing it. It's gonna go in the performing arts library and someday, 50 years from now, somebody will go, Oh, people were doing that. That's cool.

Idelisse: Happily, Jody isn't just archiving her work. She is creating new works and performing

Joanne: right and you know, as we said before it, the spontaneity of what she does, the interactivity of what she does in her performance is so unique and awe inspiring. She has two pieces in particular. One called Life Traveler and the other called Walking to Present.

Life Traveler is an interactive. That can be performed on any bridge. She's gonna talk a little bit about that, and walking to present is still in process and builds on Life Traveler and can be performed at any site and relies on the body to tell us who we are.

And what we connect with.

Jody: Well, I'm doing a performance of Life traveler, right? Which is a piece that I do with, uh, suitcase two suitcases. The suitcase suggest another time. And I walk across a bridge, so, It can be done anywhere as a solo or a different performance on different bridges performing simultaneously.

Um, so this trip, I'm going to Amsterdam. I have not picked out the bridge.

Yeah. So it's a real pop-up piece. You know, I just show up and do it and I've got some, like a woman on the ground who's going to scout and also help invite people uh, so there's not an institution backing me for that one. And the other one is during a big dance conference, and I'm just gonna show up and do it on a bridge in the - alley.

And that's a, you know, kind of nice area. But the bridges are really cool. Uh, there's one that's a pedestrian bridge and the piece is basically a conversation. It's a very, very simple score. Um, it's improvised, but there's like 23 sets of movements, right? So if I run out of ideas, I just pull another one out of the back pocket, right?

And the language is also, uh, there's certain prompts to get the person you're walking with to speak and think and embody presence, which is pretty much the basis of my work right now.

Walking to Present is pretty site specific. It has to address a place, and we were commissioned for a Dance Munich festival to perform at Olympia Park, which is a trauma mountain, it's called a trauma burg, and there's a lot of them in Germany. So when everything was destroyed in World War II, they had these piles of rubble and made parks out of them or just put grass over them.

Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's sort of I'm not gonna be heavy handed with this, you know, confronting the past, but this one's more of a hike where we go up to the top of the trauma berg and you can see out very far and you know, in all these pieces, you think about what's underfoot where you are and where you are in your life.

Idelisse: I saw a video clip of a, of just a tiny bit that I loved about the walking, where you talked about putting your heel down in the past and your, your foot into the present, and I just loved it.

Jody: I think the word authentic pops up right now that I have to make stuff that feels really real to me, because I know the art that speaks to me is moving. So I don't think I want to make something that doesn't care about an audience, uh, or the viewer, the spectator.

I see what I'm doing as an exchange and otherwise it's just dead. You know, performing, performing arts, you know, performing arts, you know, you don't do that in your closet, you can practice in your closet, but you really have to come out of the closet and have a fabulous outfit on and go look.

Not always flamboyant. Uh, I mean, I, I know what speaks to me so this finding your own voice and getting better at it, or just realizing that nobody's gonna do it just like you. So just sounds so cliche. Just you do you.

Joanne: So I have two questions.

I'm gonna just ask you both of them. One is that interactivity that you bring into dance, which you know, is really brave, I think. Um, how does that work? Like as you create, and, and then the second question is, so as you're thinking forward and becoming, what are the things, what are the aspirations and challenges that you're thinking about working on?

Jody: Well, I'm really glad you asked that right now because it is a very scary thing to make something that is more intimate with an audience member. So the obvious, you need to practice with real people and you learn from that. Uh, you, you can't set out and have an agenda and just hope it works. You actually need test guests if it's a tour - guided tour kind of thing. Uh, and I'm making work where I can imagine from my experience, oh, well if I do that, they're gonna react like that. Uh, like the first piece was about the heart and it was, you know, we really touched people on their heart. It was called Four Chambers and we made an installation I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Now I feel like I'm sort of finding what it to interact and even though you can't have performed it in an opera house for 800 people, you can give someone a certain moving experience. You can offer it. They don't have to take it. They can be very cynical and like, I'm not having it. And you know, that person could be a critic and not really give over to the experience.

How does interactivity work? Well, just like a conversation. I can't do all the talking.

Your questions are provocative, so I realize I'm the one being interviewed here, so I have to talk. Um, but in a conversation, whether it's physical or verbal or you know, intellectual, I think you're kind of reading the person a little bit, you know, just slow down, uh, see what the response is. Leave lots of space for that.

Joanne: You know, my second question was, so thinking forward as you are becoming, what are the challenges and aspirations that are kind of fueling your, your adventurous spirit, your curiosity? What is it that you want to, how do you wanna challenge yourself going forward?

Jody: Well, this is a bigger question than just making art because the, just making art is all consuming, but there's a whole lot more in my life. Uh, I'm married to a supportive guy. We're celebrating being together. We met, we're celebrating the day we met, which is also our anniversary. Um, And it's been a number of years and you know, we've always been there for each other.

1982, August 27th, 1982, walking down the streets of New York, we caught eyes and the rest, you know,

I had this thought today about how other people see me, um, if, if I give enough to other people, you know, if I leave that space that I'm trying to do in my art with other people so that our relationship keeps growing. And I feel this in general. I also feel that competitive thing is just, it takes your eye off how you want to focus.

I mean, I think being, uh, you know, your own disciplined person, who knows, okay, you're just getting really tight cuz you're so disciplined. Like, just let go a little bit. It's time to like loosen the bolts and just like what, lie in some water. And um, you know, it's, I think the challenge is, as I move forward in life and get older and older and older and older and older, is not to mistrust that every wrinkle is earned. And if that's not the aesthetic of certain people, that's just too bad. Like I want to embrace life as long as I'm living and embrace the people in it and embrace that making up. Is what I do. And making up stuff that's making up stuff that's what I do.

Idelisse: Happily at the tender age of 68.

Joanne: What a youngster.

Idelisse: Yeah, she is. Jody has years and years ahead of her to make up more stuff and we can't wait to see what she comes up with.

Joanne: We can't. And this is Idelisse such a good idea that you had you feldenkrais cheerleader. Right. Um, about interviewing dance artists for Two Old Bitches and raising because it is true. You know, your body that has to continue to perform as you age. That is a challenge.

Idelisse: And to see it as not, you know, which we mentioned at the beginning, this is not about just how your body declines and and what you lose, but how you can still with pleasure and movement in your body? Yeah, I mean it's, it is one of the many reasons why I love feldenkrais and I really have to give thanks to my feldenkrais fellow students and the best feldenkrais teacher in the world, Rebecca Davis. Because when I said I wanted to do a series, um, they said, Oh, these are some of the people you should talk to and help me and you find these guests for our three parts series.

Joanne: And they did, and they did brilliantly. And the next dance artist that we'll be talking to in the next episode is Donna Uchizono, who also has an amazing story to tell. Yes. Um, and speaking of gratitude, we also wanted to express gratitude to people who let us know that they've been listening and how Two Old Bitches has influenced their lives and so recently we heard from Roseanne who,

Idelisse: Well, it's you. You hear from folks who tell you how they, it's influence. I hear from folks who say, Oh, you made me laugh, You know, which I really love. If we can make you laugh, we are happy campers. But one of the two people you heard from recently, Right. Made a change in her life.

Joanne: That's true. So just to say, we heard from Roseanne, who you do ceramics with. Meryl, a friend of mine from where I grew up, although we grew up at different times in that same place, and my friend Pat, who it turns out is now wearing lipstick.

Idelisse: And from what you said, Pat was not someone who wore lipstick,

Joanne: she was not a lipstick person. But because of our episode Lipstick, Pat has started wearing lipstick. So, you know, this is not just a vanity project, this is a project tool. Well,

Idelisse: And it makes us even more curious. About, have we had an impact? Yes. On you and what you do, or for how you live your life, please let us know. Or could we, Will you dance more now so that you get to hear these conversations with these wonderful dancers?

Joanne: Right. Let us know. We definitely read our email. We also wanna. The most amazing team that supports Two Old bitches. Katharine, who does the editing. Loubna who does the social media, and more much else. And Melissa, who is doing the transcribing and giving us amazing feedback. So thank you to them

Idelisse: And thank you for all of those of you who have given us a rating, a five star rating on where you, where you happen to listen to, um, your podcast and want to encourage those of you who haven't. This is how people choose what they're gonna listen to. By the ratings that they see and the comments. So please say something nice about us

Joanne: Yes! It makes us very happy, and thank you for listening. See you next time.