Sonoko Sakai – Salary Woman No More! | S6 E06
What are we talking about when we talk about “reinventing” ourselves? Our conversation with writer, teacher and Japanese home cooking guru, Sonoko Sakai, reveals how failure is a pathway to discovering long-standing passions and new opportunities.
After two decades as a successful film buyer and producer, Sonoko confronted financial and career loss. To heal, she discovered “putting my hands in flour was the most therapeutic way.”
In 2008, she took a noodle-making class in Japan and went on to teach Japanese home cooking in her house in California. Her reputation grew, her soba noodles were celebrated, her classes were sought after for birthdays, corporate events and by individuals, she developed a community project to preserve heirloom grains, and wrote a popular cookbook. Then, in 2020, COVID hit.
At 65, she shifted again and brought her classes online, grew her audience fivefold, brought in young women to co-create with her, and built what is becoming a women’s cooperative venture.
Sonoko keeps learning and innovating, proud that, at 65 she’s got more energy than most millennials and hopes to follow in her grandmother’s footsteps and live to at least 100.
Try her cookbook recipes, shop at her online store, and listen to our delicious conversation with Sonoko to get a flavor of the joy that reinvention evokes.
Order Sonoko’s book – Japanese Home Cooking: Simple Meals, Authentic Flavors.
Check out the NY Times article about Sonoko.
+ TRANSCRIPT
Idelisse & Joanne: Welcome to Two Old Bitches, I’m Idelisse Malavé
And I’m Joanne Sandler, and we are two old bitches!
We are interviewing our women friends, and women who could be our friends. Listen as they share stories about how they reinvent themselves!
Sonoko Sakai: I'm just, just taking one step, one, slow step at a time to reinvent myself.
Joanne Sandler: Idelisse, This episode, just thinking about doing this episode makes me hungry, it really does! (Idelisse laughing) my appetite is revved up!
Idelisse Malavé: Sonoko Sakai! The doyen of japanese home cooking, which is also the name of her book, and an amazing amazing woman. I love how she talks about food, and her enthusiasm about food, but she’s just a living lesson, about how you meet the moment and live the life that chooses you and reinvent yourself as you need to.
Joanne Sandler: I mean, from our original conception of Two Old Bitches, she is the perfect old bitch, she really is! She epitomizes what we were looking for!
Idelisse Malavé: and she is so in the present! And she’s like “yeah I’m 65 AND..”
Joanne Sandler: And I don’t want our listeners to think that I’m sucking up to you, but (Idelisse laughing) I don’t really suck up, I don’t think.. I have been known to suck up that’s not completely true! But I just want to say once again, brilliant choice! You found Sonoko!
Idelisse Malavé: I should say that The New York times found Sonoko last summer, they included her in T Magazine that they do, in the series on “15 creative women” as being a Soba noodle master, and SHE IS! And It’s incredible how she ended up in Japan, elbow deep in flower needing buckwheat to create Soba Noodles, but she is just an amazing human being, a champion of japanese home cooking
Joanne Sandler: And a teacher, I mean, just being in a conversion with her, really showed me she’s such a natural teacher
Idelisse Malavé: she is a totally natural teacher, she does this wonderful cooking classes when she did in person, and is now doing virtually
Joanne Sandler: and you ordered her--
Idelisse Malavé: Well, I ordered her curry and followed her recipe for japanese chicken curry, and I have to say- I’m not a great cook, I’m an okay cook (Joanne: you are a good cook) but it was SO delicious and easy to follow and good! And it’s just..there’s something about her presence..
Joanne Sandler: Yes, it’s just uplifting.. And so -- to our listeners, I think we are saying right from the get go, if you want joy and pleasure in your life, don’t hesitate to order Sonoko’s book and her ingredients
Idelisse Malavé: and her curry, and cooking kits and they created all sort of things -- but there’s something about-- she’s such a grounded foodies, she is a foodies but she is a grounded of-the-people foodies
Joanne Sandler: She is! And her story is fantastic, so -- let’s start!
Sonoko Sakai: I’m Sonoko SaKai born in New York. My parents are Japanese. Yes. I actually am the first American born child of five kids. And, um, my parents named me Sonoko because I was born in Kew gardens and Sonoko means garden child.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: Oh no, no, no, no. I'm still not famous. Um, I don't know. Um, that's nice of you to say, but I really am just who I was. Um, you know, before I started doing this, I started doing, uh, cooking, uh, or teaching, um, seriously about 10 years ago, but I've basically been, you know, I'm not a chef. I've basically kind of taught myself and thought it would be fun to share some of my experiences in the kitchen. So it's just evolved very naturally for me.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: maybe that's because... my identity, it has been so mixed. I've been Mexican. I thought I was Mexican for a while. And then, then it was American. Then I'm Japanese. My parents are Japanese, but I have, I'm so mixed up. I actually have European blood in me too. So I'm a little Italian, a little German, a little Swiss or whatever it is, you know, all those. So I, I just say, you know, it's like, I'm going to just create my own authenticity, you know, I'm Japanese and this is how I adapted and substituted things that I can't find here, but I could still call it Japanese. And I think that's - that's the wave of the future.
[MUSIC]
Joanne Sandler: Ide, I love that Sonoko talks about failure as one of the really important experiences that you go through in life
Idelisse Malavé: and - and then she tested in this, there's no, like, shame or blame. It's like, you know, life happens. And this happened not with, you know, disappointing for her, her family, the people she worked with. But it happened. And then - and how she dealt with that.
Joanne Sandler: Yeah, it's a little bit I have a little bit of a problem with the framing of failure because it makes it sound like a dead end. And Sonoko shows us how failure becomes actually the pathway to something new.
Idelisse Malavé: Right. And I think she says it very she connects failure and reinvention really well.
Sonoko Sakai: But, um, it was also a way to reinvent myself after I failed big time in the film business.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I had several lives, you know, so I was, you know, working for someone for many years, for 20 years, I was an employee. We call it salaryman in Japan or salary - salary woman who gets a paycheck, you know? And, uh, I had an entertainment expense because I was in the film business, wining and dining, and really nice restaurants and wearing very expensive, nice clothes and, uh, going to all the film markets and the film, you know, the red carpet events. But, you know, it's like for me, that was, that was a job that was a day job. And I was trying to find my creative voice and it just always, uh, the one that, for me, that, that's the one that seems simple. The, I don't know, I was really always interested in cooking. So I always found that I could be very creative in the kitchen and I just, um, but found it nurturing and therapeutic and um, whereas like I have a husband who's very creative. He can draw, he can build, he can, I don't know. He's - he can make furniture. He makes huge sculptures in the desert. I mean, so here's, you know, but, but it's it, you know, I could be so expressive in the kitchen and in life also, you know, life is art, our home is art. So we always stood on that. So I think, um, I'm happy where I am right now because I'm kind of focused on, um, expressing myself without having to like report to a boss, you know? Yeah.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: Well, um, well failure is, in my case, I was a film producer and I saw the numbers we failed, you know, we could not recover the investment that my investors made in the film, and we could, I could not also meet the creative expectations. The film just did not perform. So even though I'm not the director or the writer of the film as a producer, as one of the producers, I really failed and failing in the movie business failure happens a lot. Like if you have one hit and out of, you know, 10 movies, you're still, you could still be a successful film producer because especially if you're working for a studio because they sort of, if they could break even, they're very happy, they're just keep going. But it wasn't like I had a, uh, a pipeline of movies in development. So one day there meant a lot for me. And, um, and I also, you know, I disappointed people. I disappointed my family. I disappointed... uh, you know, not just my investors, but my- my friends are always my friends, but like, I think I, um, I, I, my marriage almost fell apart.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I was a pretty good, uh, buyer of films I bought for the Japanese market and I had some major hits like Lord of the rings and I was really good. I had really good gut feelings about picking the right stories. And I did that for 28 years. And then I transitioned as I got older and my boss said, well, I'm selling the company and retiring, here's your new boss, but maybe he's gonna, you know, um, cut you out in, uh, about a year. So you better start thinking about what to do next. And I said, Oh, okay. And so I- within the film business, I reinvented myself and became a producer, uh, an independent producer. There aren't too many independent Japanese female producers. And so I was in the limelight for a little bit just because I was doing something that nobody really was attempting, which is co-productions with, uh, in the international marketplace. But the film just did not work.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: it came out 12 years ago when the pan, uh, not a pandemic, but, you know, we had the falling out - the financial crisis and, and our movie actually opened on the week that the financial crisis happened that October. And so even though it was, uh, it was a studio release and everything, everybody went to see a Chihuahua movie instead, and nobody went to see blindness and it was kind of gloomy, you know, it's the epidemic of blindness.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: So I, so anyway, I went into real difficult financial times because as an independent producer, you put everything on collateral. And I, I, you know, it's like I have to sell my house in Santa Monica and downsize. And, but, you know, it was during that time of, uh, reflection and, and, um, healing. I, I just, um, did simple things, you know, I, I decided I, I look at myself and see what would help me heal. And I was just cooking and was putting, yeah, I'm putting my hands in flour was the most therapeutic way. I, you know, I don't rely on therapists to help me, you know, I just help myself and, and refocus myself, refocused on myself.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I wanted to just be in the kitchen by myself and kind of learn how to cook again.
[MUSIC]
Idelisse Malavé: So... Sonoko finds her way happily into the kitchen and is doing really well. 2019, I think her book was published, a book gets published, everything is great. And then the pandemic comes. And if you're doing in-person cooking classes, which was, you know, at the center of her business, you're not doing that anymore
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I was canceling cooking classes left and right. I mean, it was unbelievable how many, um, workshops we had to cancel and refund people. And because I thought I was set for like three months and all of that had to be refunded or credited for future classes when the pandemic was over. But here we are still in a pandemic. So, um, I, I discovered zoom.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: Amazing. It's amazing how - I think I would say, um, my business grew fourfold four or five fold because before it was, I have 10, 12 people in my house or in some school, or I would, you know, basically, um, drive to San Francisco, drive down to San Jose or to, you know, wherever people call me with all my pots and pans. It was exhausting, physically exhausting and piles of dishes that we had to do. I had to hire people to help me with the dishes. And I thought, God, I don't know how I could keep going physically, but you know, I was still enjoying it. And, and then the pandemic happened and when I started reaching out people virtually. First, I only had six people sign up. And then, you know, I started, you know, my business started growing and like a studio, I did one with Nickelodeon.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I did one with Suntory. So, and Google, these people are saying, okay, you know, we're trying to also stay in touch with our team. Can you do something, um, with cooking? So I started getting corporate clients and private clients, um, birthday parties, but I also do on a regular basis. I have classes and I make these kits for people who like don't have access to Japanese ingredients. Right. So, or they don't have flour. They don't want to go shopping. So it's optional, but I created all these kits and people love them. So that's an extra source of income for me because, you know, I get some, one of my assistants creates all these kits. So that's for her, she, my, my assistant also, she got laid off from her job. So here it was an opportunity to give somebody a source of income. So, you know, we've become really kind of smart from this pandemic because we created a whole new business and, um, opportunity to reach to people like in Alaska, Hawaii, Indonesia, I'm telling you Hong Kong
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: suddenly I had to do everything on my own. And I realized, you know, 65 is nothing 65, I'm sorry, but I'm younger than most millennials in some sense, you know, I don't sit around watching TV.
[MUSIC]
Joanne Sandler: So, Sonoko said, the words that are always magic to my ears, “so maybe we could start a project”.
Idelisse Malavé: It was so inventive! You know, she reinvents herself, but she is so inventive and innovative. And when she speaks of millennials, she knows of what she speaks. And the assistant to help me set up the interview based on a cold call, cold email is a young woman and one of apparently a few young women that Sonoko works with.
Joanne Sandler: right, so that while she's innovating around Japanese home cooking and starting a new business and, you know, doing it in a new way, she is really unleashing all this power of other young women.
Idelisse Malavé: It's - her generosity is really boundless.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I work and I learn how to, you know, grow vegetables really well. And, and so I'm so proud of my vegetable garden. And, um, and you know, my assistants, my millennial assistants are- are all working part time, but they're so wonderful. So wonderful. And a couple of them got pregnant. And so I gave them, uh, one of them, she's a, she's an artist. So I said, wow, maybe we could do a project while you're, you know, where you're kind of taking, you know, spending time at home. And so she and I came up with a project where we designed these Japanese towels, stencil towels. And I'm telling you, she created 20. I mean, she created, uh, uh, she created 200 and we sold out in a week, like less than a week. She sold them all out.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I feel like at my age, I also want to encourage younger artisans to, um, express themselves. So I say, you know, okay, Daniella Daniella is a Puerto Rican. I said, Daniella, so you have this idea. You really want to do these cookies. She said, yeah, I really want to do them. I really wanted them. So I said, okay, go ahead and do it. It just turns out to be this fantastic one. So we- we even did a, uh, zoom with her teaching the class. And, um, she can also draw some, having to do a curry cookbook. She's doing a booklet right now.
Idelisse Malavé: That’s fabulous
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: It's like a women's co-op and I actually, I, you know, I don't, a lot of my friends at my age are already retired. They're taking care of grandchildren or talking about traveling, but they can't travel, so they're stuck, but, um, I'm, I love to work. I'm just I'm uh, and you know, my husband's an artist, so we both don't even think retirement is in our picture. No, no. Like we think that's like the most boring thing you could imagine. I mean, I, so he doesn't mind that I'm like always busy body, you know? Um, um, and it's a good thing. It's a good thing that, um, I'm working. I love it. I love, you know, and I don't need to, I could be on social security if I want, (laugh)
[MUSIC]
Idelisse Malavé: Sonoko's generosity and caring is not limited to the young women she works with, and I'm sure there are many students who she speaks of lovingly. It also extends to the Earth. She's an activist, a heritage grain activist.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: So I'm really interested in a variety of heirloom grains, but one of them is buckwheat soba noodles. And I met, um, Anson mills, Glenn Roberts, who is based in South Carolina. And she turned me on to the restoration of heirloom grains, a movement that you find in different regions of the United States, um, New York, you know, uh, Maine, um, you know, in Arizona, I mean all over people are trying to, uh, fight the mono culture, um, agriculture, um, the GMO, you know, type of raising. We have not weep corn and soybean. And so, uh, in my small way, I said, Oh, what could I add? So you want me to start a grain movement in Southern California? He says, and he said, yeah, yeah. You just have to talk to some sustainable farmers, you know, farmers who practice, you know, organic or sustainable farming and see if they would be interested in planting some heirloom seeds.
I said, Oh, okay, well, maybe I could do that. I don't really know that many farmers directly, but maybe I could try, well, Glenn Roberts sends me like four tons of organic heirloom seeds and a combine. crazy guy. And I'm telling you for like two years, I struggled to figure out how to make use of it. But eventually I found this really wonderful farmer in Tehachapi, wiser, Alex wiser, who, um, who is a potato vegetable farmer in Tehachapi. And I have a ranch in Tehachapi. So I actually went up to him and says, Hey, would you be interested in planting some heirloom grains? And he says, okay, well, it won't make me any money, but I'll, I'll experiment with you and I'll plant a row. And that started like 12 years ago. And now he makes a variety and he's also gotten other people interested in heirloom grains.
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: This is a community project. We want to share these, uh, grains with other farmers. And, um, so there's a lot of back and forth, um, uh, you know, like that we needed to do to, for people to understand our intentions, but I've kind of backed out of it because I'm not the farmer and they have to be green project is run by somebody else, but I'm sort of, you know, um, the, what do you call it? The cheerleader right now,
[MUSIC]
Sonoko Sakai: I just keep going, you know, I just keep doing what I, I started doing and, um, stay on, on the right track, stay focused, uh, is there's so many distractions in this world, but, um, I have, um, I already have principals that I, I, you know, stand by and I just don't want to deviate from that because I think they're pretty cool already. And, um, it's not something I invented, but I, you know, as a, as a cook, I have, um, you know, I have basically - I say the same things over and over, but, um, you know, at my age, I, I feel like I just want to, you know, live to a hundred, like my grandmother, she lived to 102 and she was baking bread till she was a hundred. Wow. And, um, making people happy, you know, happy. And I mean, she just gave me so much joy and if I could even be half of her, I think I'm doing something good. And so, yeah. I want to stay on track and stay healthy
[MUSIC]
Idelisse Malavé: If it's Sonoko's goal to give people joy, I think both of us can attest that talking with her for this episode gave us both an enormous amount of joy.
Joanne Sandler: It was the best, Idelisse! That was such a good find in The New York Times. I really appreciate it.
Idelisse Malavé: Just so amazing. And, you know, during these times when all sort of people, like you, who perhaps didn't cook before and ended up doing some cooking
Joanne Sandler: Some (laughing) emphasize some
Idelisse Malavé: well, but, you know, we've all been cooking for ourselves so much more to have someone who's talking about home cooking in this enthusiastic, inviting, welcoming. It's part of a movement way, just perfect.
Joanne Sandler: It is. And and also, you know, we were saying at the beginning how Sonoko kind of epitomizes exactly what we were thinking about with Two Old Bitches, because Sonoko, her - her ability to adapt to the pandemic, is really such an important life lesson. And you know that she is going to have so much more happening in the future. She she has this just trajectory that is really inspiring
Idelisse Malavé: And this outlook. I think it's an outlook of which I hope all of us can have, but especially for old bitches to have this outlook of what's next, what can happen, what's going to surprise me.
Joanne Sandler: Perfect Segway to what I wanted to say. What's next? What's next is we're going to do an episode on Old Bitches and Pandemics, particularly this past pandemic (laughing)
Idelisse Malavé: This particular pandemic. That feels decades old. I know it's just a year but it feels decades old
Joanne Sandler: and we'd love to hear from you listeners. If you've had any bizarre, wonderful, horrible pandemic experiences, please email us and tell us what's happened to you during this pandemic
Idelisse Malavé: and what strategies you've employed to get through it.
Joanne Sandler: Yeah, we'd love to hear. Thank you for listening. Join us next time. Stay safe.
Idelisse Malavé: Thanks!
